Aw man. I was using "WTF-8" to mean "Double UTF-8", as I described most recently at [1]. Double UTF-8 is that unintentionally popular encoding where someone takes UTF-8, accidentally decodes it as their favorite single-byte encoding such as Windows-1252, then encodes those characters as UTF-8.

> ÃƒÆ'Ã‚Æ'ÃƒÂ¢Ã‚â‚¬Ã‚Å¡ÃƒÆ'Ã‚â€šÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â the future of publishing at W3C

Neato! I wrote a shitty version of 50% of that two years ago, when I was tasked with uncooking a bunch of data in a MySQL database as part of a larger migration to UTF-8. I hadn't done that much pencil-and-paper bit manipulation since I was 13.

Awesome module! I wonder if anyone else had ever managed to reverse-engineer that tweet before.

I love this.

You really want to call this WTF (8)? Is it april 1st today? Am I the only one that thought this article is about a new funny project that is called "what the fuck" encoding, like when somebody announced he had written a to_nil gem https://github.com/mrThe/to_nil ;) Sorry but I can't stop laughing.

This is intentional. I wish we didn't have to do stuff like this, but we do and that's the "what the fuck". All because the Unicode Committee in 1989 really wanted 16 bits to be enough for everybody, and of course it wasn't.

The mistake is older than that. Wide character encodings in general are just hopelessly flawed.

WinNT, Java and a lot of more software use wide character encodings UCS2/UTF-16(/UTF-32?). And it was added to C89/C++ (wchar_t). WinNT actually predates the Unicode standard by a year or so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_character , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT#Development

And as the linked article explains, UTF-16 is a huge mess of complexity with back-dated validation rules that had to be added because it stopped being a wide-character encoding when the new code points were added. UTF-16, when implemented correctly, is actually significantly more complicated to get right than UTF-8.

Sure, go to 32 bits per character. But it cannot be said to be "simple" and will not allow you to make the assumption that 1 integer = 1 glyph.

You can't use that for storage.

What's your storage requirement that's not adequately solved by the existing encoding schemes?

What are you suggesting, store strings in UTF8 and then "normalize" them into this bizarre format whenever you load/save them purely so that offsets correspond to grapheme clusters? Doesn't seem worth the overhead to my eyes.

In-memory string representation rarely corresponds to on-disk representation.

NFG enables O(N) algorithms for character level operations.

i think linux/mac systems default to UCS-4, certainly the libc implementations of wcs* do.

The Unixish C runtimes of the world uses a 4-byte wchar_t. I'm not aware of anything in "Linux" that actually stores or operates on 4-byte character strings. Obviously some software somewhere must, but the overwhelming majority of text processing on your linux box is done in UTF-8.

We don't even have 4 billion characters possible now. The Unicode range is only 0-10FFFF, and UTF-16 can't represent any more than that. So UTF-32 is restricted to that range too, despite what 32 bits would allow, never mind 64.

> But we don't seem to be running out

NFG uses the negative numbers down to about -2 billion as a implementation-internal private use area to temporarily store graphemes. Enables fast grapheme-based manipulation of strings in Perl 6. Though such negative-numbered codepoints could only be used for private use in data interchange between 3rd parties if the UTF-32 was used, because neither UTF-8 (even pre-2003) nor UTF-16 could encode them.

Yes. sizeof(wchar_t) is 2 on Windows and 4 on Unix-like systems, so wchar_t is pretty much useless. That's why C11 added char16_t and char32_t.

I'm wondering how common the "mistake" of storing UTF-16 values in wchar_t on Unix-like systems? I know I thought I had my code carefully basing whether it was UTF-16 or UTF-32 based on the size of wchar_t, only to discover that one of the supposedly portable libraries I used had UTF-16 no matter how big wchar_t was.

Oh ok it's intentional. Thx for explaining the choice of the name. Not only because of the name itself but also by explaining the reason behind the choice, you achieved to get my attention. I will try to find out more about this problem, because I guess that as a developer this might have some impact on my work sooner or later and therefore I should at least be aware of it.

to_nil is actually a pretty important function! Completely trivial, obviously, but it demonstrates that there's a canonical way to map every value in Ruby to nil. This is essentially the defining feature of nil, in a sense.

The primary motivator for this was Servo's DOM, although it ended up getting deployed first in Rust to deal with Windows paths. We haven't determined whether we'll need to use WTF-8 throughout Servo—it may depend on how document.write() is used in the wild.

So we're going to see this on web sites. Oh, joy.

No. This is an internal implementation detail, not to be used on the Web.

Yes, that bug is the best place to start. We've future proofed the architecture for Windows, but there is no direct work on it that I'm aware of.

What does the DOM do when it receives a surrogate half from Javascript? I thought that the DOM APIs (e.g. createTextNode, innerHTML setter, setAttribute, HTMLInputElement.value setter, document.write) would all strip out the lone surrogate code units?

In current browsers they'll happily pass around lone surrogates. Nothing special happens to them (v. any other UTF-16 code-unit) till they reach the layout layer (where they obviously cannot be drawn).

I found this through https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9609955 -- I find it fascinating the solutions that people come up with to deal with other people's problems without damaging correct code. Rust uses WTF-8 to interact with Windows' UCS2/UTF-16 hybrid, and from a quick look I'm hopeful that Rust's story around handling Unicode should be much nicer than (say) Python or Java.

Have you looked at Python 3 yet? I'm using Python 3 in production for an internationalized website and my experience has been that it handles Unicode pretty well.

Not that great of a read. Stuff like:

Many people who prefer Python3's way of handling Unicode are aware of these arguments. It isn't a position based on ignorance.

Hey, never meant to imply otherwise. In fact, even people who have issues with the py3 way often agree that it's still better than 2's.

Python 3 doesn't handle Unicode any better than Python 2, it just made it the default string. In all other aspects the situation has stayed as bad as it was in Python 2 or has gotten significantly worse. Good examples for that are paths and anything that relates to local IO when you're locale is C.

> Python 3 doesn't handle Unicode any better than Python 2, it just made it the default string. In all other aspects the situation has stayed as bad as it was in Python 2 or has gotten significantly worse.

My complaint is not that I have to change my code. My complaint is that Python 3 is an attempt at breaking as little compatibilty with Python 2 as possible while making Unicode "easy" to use. They failed to achieve both goals.

I have to disagree, I think using Unicode in Python 3 is currently easier than in any language I've used. It certainly isn't perfect, but it's better than the alternatives. I certainly have spent very little time struggling with it.

That is not quite true, in the sense that more of the standard library has been made unicode-aware, and implicit conversions between unicode and bytestrings have been removed. So if you're working in either domain you get a coherent view, the problem being when you're interacting with systems or concepts which straddle the divide or (even worse) may be in either domain depending on the platform. Filesystem paths is the latter, it's text on OSX and Windows — although possibly ill-formed in Windows — but it's bag-o-bytes in most unices. There Python 2 is only "better" in that issues will probably fly under the radar if you don't prod things too much.

There is no coherent view at all. Bytes still have methods like .upper() that make no sense at all in that context, while unicode strings with these methods are broken because these are locale dependent operations and there is no appropriate API. You can also index, slice and iterate over strings, all operations that you really shouldn't do unless you really now what you are doing. The API in no way indicates that doing any of these things is a problem.

When you say "strings" are you referring to strings or bytes? Why shouldn't you slice or index them? It seems like those operations make sense in either case but I'm sure I'm missing something.

I used strings to mean both. Byte strings can be sliced and indexed no problems because a byte as such is something you may actually want to deal with.

It slices by codepoints? That's just silly, so we've gone through this whole unicode everywhere process so we can stop thinking about the underlying implementation details but the api forces you to have to deal with them anyway.

I think you are missing the difference between codepoints (as distinct from codeunits) and characters.

And unfortunately, I'm not anymore enlightened as to my misunderstanding.

Codepoints and characters are not equivalent. A character can consist of one or more codepoints. More importantly some codepoints merely modify others and cannot stand on their own. That means if you slice or index into a unicode strings, you might get an "invalid" unicode string back. That is a unicode string that cannot be encoded or rendered in any meaningful way.

Right, ok. I recall something about this - ü can be represented either by a single code point or by the letter 'u' preceded by the modifier.

bytes.upper is the Right Thing when you are dealing with ASCII-based formats. It also has the advantage of breaking in less random ways than unicode.upper.

> There Python 2 is only "better" in that issues will probably fly under the radar if you don't prod things too much.

Well, Python 3's unicode support is much more complete. As a trivial example, case conversions now cover the whole unicode range. This holds pretty consistently - Python 2's `unicode` was incomplete.

> It is unclear whether unpaired surrogate byte sequences are supposed to be well-formed in CESU-8.

From the article:

People used to think 16 bits would be enough for anyone. It wasn't, so UTF-16 was designed as a variable-length, backwards-compatible replacement for UCS-2.

I understand that for efficiency we want this to be as fast as possible. Simple compression can take care of the wastefulness of using excessive space to encode text - so it really only leaves efficiency.

That's roughly how UTF-8 works, with some tweaks to make it self-synchronizing. (That is, you can jump to the middle of a stream and find the next code point by looking at no more than 4 bytes.)

Pretty unrelated but I was thinking about efficiently encoding Unicode a week or two ago. I think there might be some value in a fixed length encoding but UTF-32 seems a bit wasteful. With Unicode requiring 21 (20.09) bits per code point packing three code points into 64 bits seems an obvious idea. But would it be worth the hassle for example as internal encoding in an operating system? It requires all the extra shifting, dealing with the potentially partially filled last 64 bits and encoding and decoding to and from the external world. Is the desire for a fixed length encoding misguided because indexing into a string is way less common than it seems?

When you use an encoding based on integral bytes, you can use the hardware-accelerated and often parallelized "memcpy" bulk byte moving hardware features to manipulate your strings.

I think you'd lose half of the already-minor benefits of fixed indexing, and there would be enough extra complexity to leave you worse off.

Yes. For example, this allows the Rust standard library to convert &str (UTF-8) to &std::ffi::OsStr (WTF-8 on Windows) without converting or even copying data.

An interesting possible application for this is JSON parsers. If JSON strings contain unpaired surrogate code points, they could either throw an error or encode as WTF-8. I bet some JSON parsers think they are converting to UTF-8, but are actually converting to GUTF-8.

The name is unserious but the project is very serious, its writer has responded to a few comments and linked to a presentation of his on the subject[0]. It's an extension of UTF-8 used to bridge UTF-8 and UCS2-plus-surrogates: while UTF8 is the modern encoding you have to interact with legacy systems, for UNIX's bags of bytes you may be able to assume UTF8 (possibly ill-formed) but a number of other legacy systems used UCS2 and added visible surrogates (rather than proper UTF-16) afterwards.

> WTF8 exists solely as an internal encoding (in-memory representation)

Better WTF8 than invalid UCS2-plus-surrogates. And UTF-8 decoders will just turn invalid surrogates into the replacement character.

I thought he was tackling the other problem which is that you frequently find web pages that have both UTF-8 codepoints and single bytes encoded as ISO-latin-1 or Windows-1252

The nature of unicode is that there's always a problem you didn't (but should) know existed.

Some time ago, I made some ASCII art to illustrate the various steps where things can go wrong:

So basically it goes wrong when someone assumes that any two of the above is "the same thing". It's often implicit.

That's certainly one important source of errors. An obvious example would be treating UTF-32 as a fixed-width encoding, which is bad because you might end up cutting grapheme clusters in half, and you can easily forget about normalization if you think about it that way.

Let me see if I have this straight. My understanding is that WTF-8 is identical to UTF-8 for all valid UTF-16 input, but it can also round-trip invalid UTF-16. That is the ultimate goal.

By the way, one thing that was slightly unclear to me in the doc. In section 4.2 (https://simonsapin.github.io/wtf-8/#encoding-ill-formed-utf-...):

The encoding that was designed to be fixed-width is called UCS-2. UTF-16 is its variable-length successor.

hmmm... wait... UCS-2 is just a broken UTF-16?!?!

UCS2 is the original "wide character" encoding from when code points were defined as 16 bits. When codepoints were extended to 21 bits, UTF-16 was created as a variable-width encoding compatible with UCS2 (so UCS2-encoded data is valid UTF-16).

The given history of UTF-16 and UTF-8 is a bit muddled.

إرسال تعليق

Iklan Atas Artikel

Iklan Tengah Artikel 1

Iklan Tengah Artikel 2

Iklan Bawah Artikel